devarim

not surprisingly, I've got plenty of thoughts on breastfeeding. Actually, upon seeing the title of your entry my first thought was "why yes, in fact, I do". Then I realized that you actually were writing about breastfeeding.

I don't personally feel comfortable nursing in shul (in the sanctuary). (though who knows how I might feel in the future. I've come a really long way in where I feel comfortable nursing.) However, I would have no problem if another mom wanted to do so and was doing it in a modest way. Nursing can be a serious time committment, and if you can't figure out how to do other things that you need/want to do at the same time, you're probably not going to be too happy or want to continue breastfeeding.

and I don't see a problem with having a separate standard for modesty in breastfeeding in shul while people are davening vs anywhere else. Different situations require different standards. and it's not like they defined modesty (as far as I can see). That's still up to the mother. just staying covered with your shirt can be perfectly modest (and in fact I'm finding it more so with an older baby).

The fact is that a baby (or any small child) is likely to be a distraction in shul. but I'm sure you wouldn't say that they shouldn't be there. So why is it more distracting when that baby happens to be eating (even eating a bottle)? They're probably quieter that way.

which is, I think, why kids are often given lollipops in shul - to keep them quiet while their parents are trying to daven. At the Chabad by us, the rabbi gives out lollipops during davening, in the sanctuary, and the kids eat them wherever (including the rabbi's grandchildren). but then again, the kids also run in and out of the davening and are not expected to be as quiet as they are at YI. I like it a lot better this way. but it might only work in practice in a smaller congregation.

I'm ready to join your letter writing campaign. That's just a horrible thing to say.

As long as there's an eruv (which addresses the issue of the mother and baby getting there in the first place) and a mechitza, and the mother is trying to cover herself reasonably, maybe in a back corner, what's the issue?

OK, let me start with saying that numerous families bring nosh to our shul for their kids. During davening, in the shul proper - so Mommy can daven in the first place. We don't, but we also don't use the eruv, so it would only be relevant for yom tov.

In general, I can't see that it would be a common occurrence; older babies don't eat quite so often, and younger ones are liable to become a disruption and therefore not be in the sanctuary, but for a family bar Mitzvah, for example? Why should she need to walk out? Like someone said, *she* can daven while nursing. Similarly, are you suggesting that we (me and my hypothetical infant) *leave* during birkas cohanim?

In our shul, we recently had a Shabbos bris, but the family lives way outside the eruv, several miles from our shul so the bris and seudah were at the shul itself. Obviously the mother was there; should she have shlepped out with a getting-hungry baby instead of quietly latching him on? He maybe let out one whimper. And I'm only assuming he was nursing; they were covered and I wasn't trying to pry.

Oh, but we don't *have* pews. It's regular chairs. . . does that mean it's OK? :-)

Count me in for the letter writing; if I'm on the ladies' side, how would Mr. Rabbi know if I'm nursing?

Shana---There is no such statement about lovemaking

Yosef - could you be more specific, please? Which statement (or non-statement) are you refering to? The (lack of) ruling that we should have sex in shul, or the idea of the Shekhina's presence during lovemaking? I suspect you are speaking of the latter, in which case I cannot cite the source at the moment but I am quite certain that I have heard this. Though even if I am wrong, it's irrelevant, because the romance/marriage metaphor does exist and is a fairly well-accepted motif in Tanach.

Lulei demistafina, I'm with you on this one Shanna.

Here's my question to those who argue that breastfeeding is "a natural process" and there's "nothing to be ashamed of": What's your position on masturbation?

Longtime lurker, first-time poster (hi shanna!). I just want to register as a letter-writer (although I suspect that rabbi might just say that it would be better, for me and my children, just to swallow the outrage I feel at his totally unjustified speculations and perhaps do something more constructive, such as bake a kugel for my husband).

At first my thought was that it's wonderful that the Conservative movement has come out with something as cohesive as this--as an outsider, I often feel that I'd like more definitive statements from our Conservative fellows, but then I saw what we in my home state of Arkansas like to refer to as The Clinton Clause: "so long as it is done in a modest, subtle and dignified fashion." I have breastfed (am breastfeeding) two kids and even though I think I am always nursing in that way, especially when we are in public, I have been reprimanded by all sorts of people, including the elderly ladies at the voting booths and a Starbucks customer who suggested that I might be more comfortable in the restroom. I refrained from suggesting that he find a nice spot next to the urinals to enjoy his double-tall.

Also, I think that urging anyone to do something radical, but in a way that doesn't offend anyone, may really be asking them, um, not to do it. So beware!

I join you in fuming at the RCA comment. I letter is a tame reponse to such an offensive statement, but I would certainly sign!

Maier wants to know at which shul he can find such a great mitzvah being performed ;)

ClooJew - For the record, I am one of the people who thinks that breastfeeding is "a natural process" and there's "nothing to be ashamed of." I also think that eating, telling jokes, and having a coughing fit are nothign to be a shamed of, but I would try to avoid doing them during a communal religious service. So, since I am one of "those," I'd like to respond to your question. Masturbation, for women, is also natural, nothing to be ashamed of, and permitted under Jewish law. I would argue not only that it is permitted, but that it should be encouraged in order to develop a healthy sexual attitude and awareness of one's body. For Jewish men, it is not permitted, and this is a challenge which must be overcome. I am not aware of any restriction on masturbation by non-Jewish men.

CW - Tell Maier I have it on good word that such activities (the breastfeeeding, not the sex in the aisles) has taken place at our own YI. Also tell him he can post comments on his own, if he'd like.

Rachel, ruth, LC, and Felicia - I'll see what I can do to get the necessary information for letter-writing. If any of you have time before I do and want to draft a stock letter and/or get the appropriate names/addresses (RCA, including another person besides Rabbi Herring, and The Jewish Week) and post them here, that would be wonderful.

Ruth - I'm so sorry you've gotten negative comments. I've gotten nothing but positive comments so far (except from my brother. and grossing him out is only a plus for me).

Both your post and the comments reflect why breastfeeding is not permitted in Orthodox shuls. Did you forget the Conservative movement doesn't follow the logic of the Orthodox movement (or why would a Conservative movement be necessary?).

Breastfeeding isn't permitted in Orthodox Shuls? Oops.

Seriously, we don't currently live inside the eruv, and didn't use it when we did, but I've shlepped my breastfeeding baby to shul (not on Shabbos, obviously) and nursed said baby behind the mechitzah, and I don't think anyone even noticed! on several occasions where I couldn't just leave, and the baby would be quiet that way... during Megillah reading on Purim and during shofar-blowing on Rosh Hashana, for example. Okay, if I couldn't quiet the baby that way, I would have left anyway, and found someone to read/blow for me later, but I could keep the baby quiet, pretty easily, so I did.

When it was possible to leave, I found a quiet out of the way spot somewhere... but a nursing baby, breastfed on demand, doesn't always give you that option without being extremely vocal about being forced to wait.

Oh, and I detest the "wouldn't you be more comfortable in a restroom" comments. Besides not being a pleasant place to eat, there are no *seats* in the restroom. If there's a nice lounge, that works, but a standard public restroom, yuo wind up having the choice of nursing standing up, sitting on the floor, or sitting on a toilet that has no top seat. No thank you! I'd rather find a nice quiet bench or corner, or unobtrusively nurse right where I am if it seems appropriate.

Oh, and the reason the issue hasn't come up for the RCA is because we don't make a big issue about it... we just do it. The other women understand, if they even notice, and the men don't notice at all. One benefit to tall mechitzahs and a separate entrance (ie not through the women's section) for the men! If it's not set up for public nursing, the women won't do it... so that Rabbi wouldn't even know what's going on in his own shul, much less other shuls!

I would definitely sign the letter in support of the inappropriateness of the generalization of the proper place for a new mother is only in the home. That's just way too close to "kinder, kuche, and (l'havdil)kirche" for my comfort

This discussion came to mind this shabbos when, at the Newton Centre Minyan, a women sitting near me (in the back row) started nursing (though only during Adom Olam and announcements). I doubt anyone even noticed except me and her friend sitting next to her.

I think that Rabbi Artson is doing the best he can under the circumstances. It would be unfair to nursing mothers to insist that they miss leining or the rabbi's sermon because their babies need to eat. On the other hand, in a shul with mixed seating, it's reasonable to try to accomodate congregants who find their kavana impaired by the sight of women whipping out their breasts. Mothers who would rather bond visually with their babies then remain in the sanctuary do have the option of moving to the lobby. In life, we have to make choices.

It is inevitable that some people will pass judgement on women breastfeeding "immodestly" even outside shul, but I don't think that can be blamed on Rabbi Artson. Nor do I think that he would be wise to comment on the matter.

As for Rabbi Herring's comment, I can only say: so much for the argument that women's tefilla groups are wrong because they prevent women from davening with a minyan! (Here's a new one: "I attend a women's tefilla group in order to breastfeed.")

One more thing: Shul modesty standards are related to general modesty standards, although they tend to be somewhat more conservative. In a society in which women increasingly need to return to work before their babies have finished nursing, people simply have to get used to the sight of public breastfeeding. It's only natural for that reality to eventually affect shul decorum.

elf - What does women "returning to work" mean? Food shopping? Clothes shopping for growing children? Car pool?

In my experience, women who work paying jobs outside of the home generally do not have the luxury of bringing the child to work with them.

The only time I have nursed any of my 3 children "in public" has been on my own time - family outings of one sort or another, whether dinner at a restaurant, waiting to be helped by a car salesman, ice skating rink, etc.

I can agree with your more generic comment about general modesty standards - there was a time when pregnant women were "confined" for the duration.
But it's about mommies taking babies out more and earlier, not about women in the work force.

A few years ago, in a Carlebach minyan (where else?), my wife saw a woman casually lift her top to nurse her toddler, who stood in front of her and enjoyed a mid-davening snack. I gather she didn't make any particular effort to cover up. Then again, they were behind a mechitza. Aside from social awkwardness, what's the problem?

There's a scene in a recent movie about progressive Orthodox women in Israel ("She'asani Isha", maybe?) with Haviva Ner-David wearing tefillin nursing her baby at the Kotel during a Rosh Hodesh Women of the Wall service. It was perfectly fine to me (sort of endearing, actually, but then again I know Haviva), but there was a bit of a gasp from the rest of the audience (it was shown during one of Professor Tamar Ross's lectures on Feminism & Orthodoxy sponsored by Edah at the JCC in Manhattan), and Professor Ross said that Haviva Ner-David regretted it being shown in the film.

Nursing a baby while wearing tefillin strikes me as bizzare. If a woman is not supposed to be even holding a child *while* davening sh'moneh esrei and a person wearing tefillin is supposed to be concentrating on Gd - that's why men don't wear tefillin all day anymore, right? - then how can it be proper kavanah for the woman wearing the tefillin to be nursing at the same time?

Nursing in the shul proper is NOT the same as nursing while davening sh'moneh esrei.