devarim

I'm not actually sure where to post this comment. It's in response to your comment on RenReb's post, so perhaps it'd be best placed there, but it's tangental to the discussion going on, and I don't want to derail that. Also, I've never been to that site before, so I don't know the lay of the land. Private e-mail might make more sense, but you did say you'd like more comments, so, well, here goes.

Re: I couldn't find three other women to say Kiddush Levana with me last motzei Shabbat, and I didn't think it was appropriate to (1) exchange greetings with men or (2) not exchange greetings at all, so yet another month has passed with no Kiddush Levana for me.

There are potentially two issues here: (1) Should you say Kiddush Levana in the first place? (2) If so, can -- or should -- it be said in the absence of others to exchange greetings with?

Regarding the first question, it seems reasonable to assume you're already familiar with the issues involved. In short: women aren't required to say kiddush levana, if only because it's a positive time-bound commandment. There are opinions that if they do say it, they should leave the bracha itself out, to avoid the safek of a bracha levatalah. As usual, consulting your rabbi is the best bet, if you haven't already done so. (See siman 426, sif kattan 1 in the Mishneh Brurah for the non-feminist approach, plus the double-starred footnote in siman 456 of Ta'amei Minhagim.)

Now that that's out of the way, the main point I wanted to make is that granting that a given person is able and willing to recite kiddush levana, greeting other people is by no means a requirement. (Its absence is not me'akev, in other words.) It's preferred, no question; the ideal case is to say it with a minyan, or with at least three other people. But if that's not an option, one can go ahead and say it alone. (Indeed, in the case of somebody required to recite kiddush levana, the absence of other people wouldn't be a valid excuse for not doing so.) So if you have a way over the first hurdle, I wouldn't let the second deter you.

Shmuel, I assume you're just being thorough, and I confess I am too tired to look up your sources. But isn't the opinion that women shouldn't make a bracha on time-bound mitzvot only accepted by Sephardim? It's common practice for Ashkenazi women to make a bracha on lulav, if they choose to fulfill that mitzvah -- why would this case be any different?

Or did I miss the fact that Shanna's Sephardi? :)

Kol Hakavod to you. Some members of the community have given up on any positive change coming to yib (in regards to women's participation).
Of course southern jerusalem gives you several possibilities on women's participation (it is amazing who many shades of grey there can be:) ).

Technically, yes, persephone, you missed that. My dad is Persian (born and raised in Iran). However, my mother (straight-up Ashkenaz) was the observant one, and my husband is the son of two Polish immigrants, and I've been making brachot on lulav and shofar all my life, so when it comes to this stuff I'm about as Ashkenaz as you can get.

So...that said, if I were to say Kiddush Levana (and I want to emphasize that I haven't ever done so yet) or to put on tzitzit (did that once...are you surprised?), I would say the associated bracha and think that to be appropriate.

Shmuel, I am aware that it is possible to say K"L without three others with whom one can exchange greetings, but I didn't want to do it that way. Which is probably reason enough (some would say) for me not to say it at all, since I'd be doing it to fulfill a personal desire rather than for the sake of the mitzvah itself. Which is why I don't wear tzitztit (yet).* And why, if I did, I would wear a talit katan (so that no one would think I was doing it to show off).

Anyway...the other women thing is something to ponder for the next month or so. I won't be the first woman/girl in our shul to say K"L alone...two months ago, after their last Shabbat before moving out of town, the daughter in one family (I think she's under bat mitzvah) said K"L with the crowd, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't her first time.

Kobi - Southern Yerushalayim, Upper West Side...on a bad day I'll take either or. Unfortunately, Julian and I are employed here (and we also happen to like it for a whole slew of reasons). Hey, without dissatisfaction there would be no change, right?

* At this point, I realized that I'd not yet said birchot hatorah yet today (and got up to do so). Um, whoops.

or to put on tzitzit (did that once...are you surprised?)

Nope! You mentioned that in the comments on someone else's blog, didn't you?

Just saw this linked to from your post linking to the discussion on bloghead on wtg.

The magen avrohom postulates (OC 296) that the reason for women customarily not saying KL might be similar to the rationale he offers for the opinion of the rema that women not say havdala for themselves but listen to a man who is motze them - by contrast to lulav, shofar etc which involve brocha on a mitzva, for havdala the m"a she'hazman grama *is* the mitzva, and same for kiddush levana.

This strikes me as a possible basis for even ashkenazic women not saying the bracha, or not say the bracha with the shem.

Yes, but if there are no men present who can say havdala for a woman, then she must say it herself. (What else is she going to do? Fast until Tuesday?) To the best of my knowledge, a woman in such a situation says havdala with shem Hashem. (OK, that just looks weird typed out.) I know that now I need a follow-up sentence tying that to kiddush levana, but I can't put it all together in my head just yet.

persephone: yes, here.

there's a downside to NOT hearing havdala though. the alternative to women not being m'chuyav is that havdala is obligatory on everyone m'chuyav in shabbos.

whereas KL is a m"a she'ha'z'man grama that women are definitely not obligated to do - it's optional.

I'm not taking a stance here - don't know if women should say a bracha or not - I just thought this reasoning re havdala might relate. The MA brings counteropinion to that (that a woman can say the bracha if it doesn't include v'tzivanu) as well.

The kabbalists have all kinds of stuff relating KL to women, as you prob. know.
This is a long article that doesn't speak directly to the topic of whether women are obligated in KL, but I thought it was an interesting take - weird, but interesting. Thought you might be interested in the view of women's changing role in Judaism, and it's connected to the symbolism of KL:

Thank you for bringing that essay to my attention; I actually have not read it before, though after skimming it I will say that some of the ideas sound familiar (and are not ones I really buy into). I am printing it out and will do my best to read it with an open mind.

I don't buy that concrete/abstract whatever.

What I thought was interesting was the notion of feminism and women's progress as a sign of ikvasa d'mshica, the notion of gender distinctions not meant to be eternal etc.